Curse

Patccmoi · May 12, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Checking what i liked and not about the current Ritualist profession, there's one thing i'm kinda unsure about atm and it's ashpots. The reason is that i like the concept but i think most are truly not worth losing your gear for.

Looking at the ashpots i considered worth it, there isn't many. Attuned, Protective was Kaolai, Generous was Tsungrai... The main reason i see is that most are simply not using one of the unique aspects of Ashpots, the fact that you can have dual effect out of it, one when you hold and one when you drop. This should make Ashpots very versatile skills as you can basically fit 2 skills in one and it'd be worth losing your gear. But for a majority, it's either an effect when you hold or when you drop and so losing your gear becomes a big penalty for not much.

This is a couple of suggestions i'd have for Item spells so that they'd become more versatile skills using the dual effect:

Grasping Was Kuurong. Hold Kuurong's ashes for up to 15...51 seconds. While you hold his ashes, you cannot be knocked down. When you drop his ashes, all nearby foes are struck for 15...63 damage and knocked down.

It would become a nice defensive + offensive ability this way. Being unable to be knocked is definitely worth sacrificing your gear for, but it's still an expensive elite. This would make it worth the elite slot.

Cruel was Daoshen. Item Spell. Hold Daoshen's ashes for up to 15...51 seconds. While you hold his ashes, melee attackers hitting you take 5..17..21 lightning damage. When you drop his ashes, all nearby foes are struck for 10...94 lightning damage.

This would make it a bit more useful to deter people from hitting you and make up for your lower max health, and it would also help softening people that decide to hit you, and if they get low enough you can do a double-blast (recast-drop) to attempt a kill. It would become a weak defense skill while holding + strong offense on drop.

Defiant Was Xinrae . Hold Xinrae's ashes for up to 5...10 seconds. While you hold her ashes, enemy Spells that the caster and the caster's allies use against you are disabled for an additional 5...17 seconds. When you drop her ashes, all your disabled skills are recharged.

This would give it an interesting secondary effect. It means that you could use it to cast through Diversion, or if you get DShotted on a spirit while using it you can drop the Ashes to recharge it. Note that it wouldn't recharge naturally recharging skills but only those that get disabled.

Mighty was Vorizun. Hold Vorizun's ashes for up to 15...51 seconds. While you hold his ashes, you gain +15 armor, and +30 maximum Energy. When you drop his ashes, you gain 5..10..11 energy.

It would give Rt another option for non-elite emanagement than Essence Strike. Note that it allows you to net up to 6E/30s at 14 attrib which is nothing impressive for emanagement, but with the secondary effect and the nature of ashpots (can precast before fight and then double the effect if required by doing a recast-drop) it would become very interesting even for secondaries. Note that you still sacrifice your gear for it, so in reality for a caster you just gain about 13 max E and some AL at the cost of 60 max health.

Blind was Mingson. Hold Mingson's ashes for up to 15...51 seconds. While you hold his ashes, you gain +1..3..4 Health regeneration. When you drop his ashes, all nearby foes are Blinded for 3...7 seconds.

I know it doesn't fit well with the 'Blind' idea, but it's a restoration ashpot and it would have a minor self-healing use at least that would make it worth it for me. Regen that you can't strip is nice. I don't see anything that fits with the 'Blind' idea and that i'd want for this ashpot (can't be blind? yay!).

Lively was Naomei. Hold Naomei's ashes for up to 45 seconds. While you hold her ashes, you have +15..51..63 max health and +5..10 max energy. When you drop her ashes, all party members in the area are resurrected with 15...63% Health and zero energy.

I don't really see anything wrong with this one, but i don't think that you should lose your gear stats for it so i'd at least allow you to have it if you have some points in Resto.

Tranquil Was Tanasen. Hold Tanasen's ashes for up to 5...17 seconds. While you hold his ashes, you have +10...22 armor and cannot be interrupted. When you drop his ashes, all adjacent (nearby?) attacking foes are interrupted.

This would give it a nice secondary effect for self-defense. If you get spiked by a warrior or assassin, you could drop it for an interrupt.

Vengeful Was Khanhei. Hold Khanhei's ashes for 5...10 seconds. Whenever a foe strikes you in combat while you are holding Khanhei's ashes, you steal 5...29 Health from that foe. When you drop his ashes, you steal 5...29 health from all nearby foes.

This spell suffers in PvP from the fact that people simply don't target you if you hold it. This would give it a nice secondary effect that at least allows you to have some effect out of it even if they're not hitting you.

Vocal was Sogolon. For 60 seconds, all Shouts and Chants you use last 20...44% longer. When you drop his ashes, all nearby foes lose the effect from one shout/chant.

I think that a way to strip shout/chants should exist, and this could fit. Tbh though it's a kinda bad concept overall so i'm not really sure if it'd even be worth it.

I think that those change would make most item spells much more interesting because of the versatility they'd get with a mix of effects. Skills that are versatile tends to be much more useful and wanted in a balanced setup than so-so skills with a penalty like 'losing your gear'.

moko · May 13, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

interesting ideas, i must admit i've never noticed that some had a double sided effect while some don't.

neither of these suggestions look that they would terrible overpower the skill and are very well reasonable, except blind was mingson obviously, as you stated.

personally, for this skill, i would like to see a condition immunity -- or at least half duration (or a % scale, which would depend on attribute invenstment to prevent abuse)

looking at Anguished Was Lingwah, it would be really hard to add another effect -- but the fact that you basically pre-spam the spirit evens it out.

about Attuned Was Songkai, i'm unsure if this could use a secondary effect, but it should just for the sake of it -- maybe you'll get x% of the base energy from your last cast back? this would make it a bit more interesting as energy management, because right now the recharge isn't that good either.

Patccmoi · May 13, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Those that i didn't mention i consider fine as is personally. Ofc you could always add something, but i don't feel that it's required to make them worth it.

Anguished is a precast spirit, which is nice in itself. In a sense, that's not really an ashpot you plan to be holding midfight, it's more an ashpot you use pre-fight so that when you get there you can drop a spirit right away and start using skills that require a spirit to work without a risk of casting a spirit and being interrupted. Since i consider it more of a spirit spell than an ashpot, i don't feel that you should really have a benefit for holding, but you could always give it a minor one 'for the sake of it', say +10AL while casting a spirit.

For Blind was Mingson, i just felt that regen would be more versatile, but something like a scaling % of condition reduction could work. Immunity is just a bad idea... Avatar of Melandru already shows that. You can be sure all kind of casters would carry it just to be immune to DW and so very hard to spike.

For Attuned you could have an effect on drop similar to Dervish enchants in Mysticism : for each spell cast while holding his ashes, you gain 1 energy. Would give you an energy boost when Attuned is done to hold until you can recast it again. In general it would likely give you something like 10-15E.

EDIT : Here's an idea that was suggested by someone else for Blind was Mingson:

Blind was Mingson. Hold Mingson's ashes for up to 8..18..21 seconds. While you hold his ashes, whenever a nearby ally is Blinded you are blinded instead. When you drop his ashes, all nearby foes are Blinded for 3...7..9 seconds.

Personally i think that's a very good idea.

skaspaakssa · May 13, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

I really like that idea for Blind was Mingson.

One thing I really dislike about items is that you can't drop them while knocked down. That doesn't really make sense to me (if you're on the floor there's a higher chance you'll drop something your holding), and I don't see anything imbalanced with a change to that. Maybe GwT or PwK could go out of hand, but I don't really think so.

The other thing is, would it be imbalanced if item spells still gave you your weapon's bonuses (excluding the ability to attack)? That could also solve the problem of weapon swapping...

I like all the skill changes you gave, but I see potential problems with Defiant was Xinrae: Defiant was Xinrae shouldn't be recharging skills like Dervish forms and Shatterstorm (I can't think of a non-elite example). That would be more like a bug/exploit, but it would be pretty bad if people could get near-constant forms by using Arcane Mimicry for Xinrae.

pooface_po · May 14, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

The Grasping was Kuurong and Cruel was Daoshen changes would be way too overpowered. If those changes were to occur, the duration of the ashes should decrease considerably. Not only that, but rits have weak little arms and can't carry such a load for a period of time

Patccmoi · May 15, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by pooface_po

The Grasping was Kuurong and Cruel was Daoshen changes would be way too overpowered. If those changes were to occur, the duration of the ashes should decrease considerably. Not only that, but rits have weak little arms and can't carry such a load for a period of time

I think you overestimate Cruel a lot. It would do 10-15 damage on a normal melee attackers (they don't have 60AL!), sometimes less. That's like 1/3rd of Empathy and you're getting pummeled in the process. It's not like you'd want them hitting you, it'd just give a small buff to the ashpot when you're holding it.

Grasping i guess it could be arguable, but personally i don't think it'd be. It's an elite ashpot, that alone is quite bad. I don't see why there'd be such a big deal that it gives you an ok bonus for holding it.

DutchSmurf · May 15, 2007, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I think you overestimate Cruel a lot. It would do 10-15 damage on a normal melee attackers (they don't have 60AL!), sometimes less. That's like 1/3rd of Empathy and you're getting pummeled in the process. It's not like you'd want them hitting you, it'd just give a small buff to the ashpot when you're holding it.

Don't forget its use in PvE.

Patccmoi · May 15, 2007, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Don't forget its use in PvE.

I don't. You mean for farming, right? As in, PvE melee mobs that are worth farming that have like 120-130AL or more and will take around 5 lightning damage per hit? While they hit you for 100+? I mean sure, you could hold it on a 55, but it's not like there isn't 100s of stuff a 55 can use to damage that are better than that.

Let's face it, it doesn't compare AT ALL with VwK as far as farming goes because it's not armor ignoring and it doesn't heal you for tons for free. It doesn't compare at all with stuff like Spiteful Spirit, etc. for pure damage

You have to get pummeled with something like 60-75AL, no gear to help for more AL or more health. It's not a situation you likely want at all.

Honestly when i look at the stats i think that for it to be worth it in PvP it would have to be something like 10..34..42 lightning damage. Even then, on most melees it would be reduced drastically to something like 20 damage (you likely don't have a sup rune while holding an ashpot, that's flatout suicidal. Leaves you with like 480 max health without DP). Because 5..17..21 won't deter anyone from hitting you really, 1/3rd of Empathy is laughable. A warrior could hit you 10+ hits before having to Heal Sig to cover it.

You mostly need to realize how big of a disadvantage losing gear is when you hold an ashpot. -60 max health, - max E, NO WEAPON SWITCH which often means -8/18AL when something hits you cause you can't equip a shield, extremely annoying against EDenial cause you can't hide your energy, etc. For ashpots to be worth it, the effect while holding should AT A MINIMUM be worth 60 max health, 10AL and 10 max E (ofc it can be worth it in tons of different ways, but if you prefer having those stats to the effect, the ashpot fails. And that's why they nearly all fail). And then add a nice effect on drop and you have an interesting skill.

So honestly to deal damage to melee attackers when you have to get hit for it to trigger, i'd go for something like 10..34..42 damage. It would truly hurt Assassins comboing you, and that's the point really. They'll still hurt you more than they get hurt by it, and they have 60 damage less to do to score a kill (and considering how their combos in general are VERY close of a straight kill, it can pretty well mean that they'll kill you straight if you don't drop the ashes). Warriors would just not use Frenzy but they could still bash on you. And for PvE farming, there's still tons of better options out there. Sure a build would likely be made out of it, but it's not like the same places aren't farmed with another build atm. I can't see any place where this would work and VwK doesn't.

suiraCLAW · May 15, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

you could hold it on a 55

Actually, you can't, since you need to hold that off-hand with that -50 maximum health thing.

IMO, instead of having Cruel reacting to every single attack, let it react on attack skills only. That way you can give a more notable damage (up to 50), which would actually hurt assassins.

Anyway, it's quite a nice list, although Defiant was X, Vengeful was K and Tranquil was T would remain useless in competetive PvP.

Patccmoi · May 15, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

Actually, you can't, since you need to hold that off-hand with that -50 maximum health thing.

IMO, instead of having Cruel reacting to every single attack, let it react on attack skills only. That way you can give a more notable damage (up to 50), which would actually hurt assassins.

Anyway, it's quite a nice list, although Defiant was X, Vengeful was K and Tranquil was T would remain useless in competetive PvP.

I'm not convinced Tranquil would. Maybe the range is too small though consideering it's attacking foes only, but i was worried about making it too good.

But say you make it attacking foes Nearby, or even in the Area, are interrupted. This can be very powerful at stopping adrenal spikes, either on you or on a nearby/area caster. It would require good timing and positioning (interrupting attacks isn't that easy, even if it's not targetted), but stopping an adrenal spike potentially every 20s while being immune to interrupt can be quite interesting on a support char. Especially if you give him some spirit. Think of something like Tranquil, Weapon of Warding, Life, Recovery, Channeled Strike, Essence Strike, Gaze from Beyond... you'll be happy that you can't be interrupted while using all that and having a dual-use to Tranquil acting as an adrenal spike safeguard could make it worth the slot.

Zuranthium · May 28, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Checking what i liked and not about the current Ritualist profession, there's one thing i'm kinda unsure about atm and it's ashpots. The reason is that i like the concept but i think most are truly not worth losing your gear for.

IMO, Spawning Power should play a role. It's such a weak Primary Attribute that needs to effect something else outside of just spirits.

"You have 10 + Spawning Power more maximum energy and 20 + (Spawing Power * 3) more maximum health while holding an item" would more-or-less make up for the loss of health and energy that you'd normally have from your equipment.

~Z

pnumm · Jun 09, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I'd love to see the 2% weapon spell increase per rank of spawning also go for item spells.